attractive pictures versus accurate pictures, and the ICC

[Dale]

I have been been reading on
http://www.color.org (ICC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIECAM

the adoption of sRGB, although a linear transform to CIE, introduces a
device paradigm as opposed to a device independent paradigm, and has
taken ICC far astray from its original purpose, not totally bad though

there also is a current focus on attractive pictures versus accurate
pictures, obtain by scene balance algorithms

sRGB and evolutions from it and attractive pictures will overtake
accurate pictures in consumer markets, professional portrait markets,
newspapers, motion picture markets and television markets, people in
these markets prefer to look better than they actually do, a concept in
art for a long time

but you could get the choice of accurate versus attractive, if an RGB
based on the eye (CIE) rather than an RGB based on video like sRGB

sRGB does not allow for the choice of accurate outside of video

in fact sRGB's paradigm has prevented color/appearance management to
enter digital photography as admitted by the ICC

advancements in appearance like scene balance algorithms might aid in
accurate appearance versus accurate color (CIECAM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIECAM

commercial photography and commercial prepress markets require a degree
of accuracy in appearance,, some other markets fall into this category
that I may or may not know, as for what I know digital photography has
not taken over fully here, even after 20-30 years

the hardware and software of having an actual CIE RGB only requires a
gamma lookup tables and Luv or Lxy matrix conversion from video RGB's,
matrix conversions and one dimensional lookup tables are supported by
ICC (this whole post has a different flavor if Kodak's scanner
intellectual property from the Eikonix acquisition in this regard
applies to cameras too)

why not take the little effort of a matrix and lookup tables that gives
you the option of accurate AND attractive, even video is changing, sRGB
is really geared to CRT display, there is LCD now, there is plasma,
there is LED, there is OLED, digital projectors, and maybe more I do not
know

also, the same scene balance algorithms that give you attractive
pictures, can be used for accurate pictures, for instance white point
from a digital photo can be used as its relative colorimetry in
appearance accurate workflows

perhaps we have been having a war in this industry since I was involved
about 20 years ago, I remember when sRGB was first suggested for an ICC
standard and said it would result in no ICC profiles not being used,
this is what has happened, the consumer video industry has left the
professional markets behind, typical consumer maneuvering at Kodak R&D
when I was there, I am not that familiar with ProPhotoRGB but I will
study it, it probably complements sRGB workflows

someone, perhaps ICC, ought to do a research project of use-cases in
imaging markets, and see where attractive color is preferred over
accurate color, and then a central color/appearance paradigm that
complements as many markets as possible, not just consumer

[Dale]

<deleted cross-posted newsgroups: sci.engr.color, sci.image.processing,
rec.photo.darkroom, comp.soft-sys.matlab>

Post by Dale
I have been been reading on
http://www.color.org (ICC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIECAM
the adoption of sRGB, although a linear transform to CIE, introduces a
device paradigm as opposed to a device independent paradigm, and has
taken ICC far astray from its original purpose, not totally bad though

<heavily edited for brevity>
Do you ever tire of cross-posting your lengthy, incomprehensible trolls
to various newsgroups?

the id, a part of the ego, is a construction of hopes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego

these hopes can be born of instinct, experience, or ideals

without negative reinforcement, fear, the id continues

with negative reinforcement a super-ego (morality) is created to change
the id if said hopes are not ideal

so there are cycles of hope and fear for ALL, everyone is a troll,
because the ego is always uncertain due to solipsism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

some are trolls for money, just because mine are for social pleasure
does not make them less in value, in debate that is an ad hominem attack

there are better trolls than others as they take on Ego Ideal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_ideal
ideal egos are based on instinct, experience or ideals

Also, do you know what a "period" is? (Hint: It's typically used at the
end of a sentence.)
John

If facebook and twitter can get into dictionaries, I can replace periods
with commas

[Mort]

I cannot help but quote here a statement which applies to accurate
versus beautiful colors, but was made on another topic.

It was stated that language translations are like mistresses:
The beautiful ones are not faithful, and the faithful ones are not
beautiful.

Mort Linder

Post by Dale
I have been been reading on
http://www.color.org (ICC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIECAM
the adoption of sRGB, although a linear transform to CIE, introduces a
device paradigm as opposed to a device independent paradigm, and has
taken ICC far astray from its original purpose, not totally bad though
there also is a current focus on attractive pictures versus accurate
pictures, obtain by scene balance algorithms
sRGB and evolutions from it and attractive pictures will overtake
accurate pictures in consumer markets, professional portrait markets,
newspapers, motion picture markets and television markets, people in
these markets prefer to look better than they actually do, a concept in
art for a long time
but you could get the choice of accurate versus attractive, if an RGB
based on the eye (CIE) rather than an RGB based on video like sRGB
sRGB does not allow for the choice of accurate outside of video
in fact sRGB's paradigm has prevented color/appearance management to
enter digital photography as admitted by the ICC
advancements in appearance like scene balance algorithms might aid in
accurate appearance versus accurate color (CIECAM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIECAM
commercial photography and commercial prepress markets require a degree
of accuracy in appearance,, some other markets fall into this category
that I may or may not know, as for what I know digital photography has
not taken over fully here, even after 20-30 years
the hardware and software of having an actual CIE RGB only requires a
gamma lookup tables and Luv or Lxy matrix conversion from video RGB's,
matrix conversions and one dimensional lookup tables are supported by
ICC (this whole post has a different flavor if Kodak's scanner
intellectual property from the Eikonix acquisition in this regard
applies to cameras too)
why not take the little effort of a matrix and lookup tables that gives
you the option of accurate AND attractive, even video is changing, sRGB
is really geared to CRT display, there is LCD now, there is plasma,
there is LED, there is OLED, digital projectors, and maybe more I do not
know
also, the same scene balance algorithms that give you attractive
pictures, can be used for accurate pictures, for instance white point
from a digital photo can be used as its relative colorimetry in
appearance accurate workflows
perhaps we have been having a war in this industry since I was involved
about 20 years ago, I remember when sRGB was first suggested for an ICC
standard and said it would result in no ICC profiles not being used,
this is what has happened, the consumer video industry has left the
professional markets behind, typical consumer maneuvering at Kodak R&D
when I was there, I am not that familiar with ProPhotoRGB but I will
study it, it probably complements sRGB workflows
someone, perhaps ICC, ought to do a research project of use-cases in
imaging markets, and see where attractive color is preferred over
accurate color, and then a central color/appearance paradigm that
complements as many markets as possible, not just consumer

[Dale]

Post by Mort
I cannot help but quote here a statement which applies to accurate
versus beautiful colors, but was made on another topic.
The beautiful ones are not faithful, and the faithful ones are not
beautiful.

I let women take the lead until they trust me to lead together, sexual
faithfulness is not as important as social faithfulness to me, as long
as children are considered in the process

[Mort]

Post by Dale

Post by Mort
I cannot help but quote here a statement which applies to accurate
versus beautiful colors, but was made on another topic.
The beautiful ones are not faithful, and the faithful ones are not
beautiful.

I let women take the lead until they trust me to lead together, sexual
faithfulness is not as important as social faithfulness to me, as long
as children are considered in the process

My point was not sexual, but simply that frequently what people seem to
prefer is not always accurate, but is considered to be pretty. Many
people prefer bright, even gaudy colors, and find accurate color
renditions to be unattractive.

Mort Linder

[Dale]

Many people prefer bright, even gaudy colors, and find accurate color
renditions to be unattractive.

most consumers prefer the "pop" saturation of consumer films

[nospam]

Post by Dale
most consumers prefer the "pop" saturation of consumer films

which they can easily get in digital, and more accurate too.

[Dale]

Post by nospam

Post by Dale
most consumers prefer the "pop" saturation of consumer films

which they can easily get in digital, and more accurate too.

you need an abstract profile to get that, or editing, easy enough, yes

I am not proposing to use film, just some thoughts

remember that colorants and substrates are still a chemical concern

even colorants used in additive systems like video

the CPU of your computer is made of chemistry

some of analog and digital technology, if only the manipulation
algorithms, are of value

the looks and feels of film,, etc. can be put into abstract profiles for
digital