hybrid system the hard way? including film modeling

[Dale]

both empirical (easy way) and mechanistic (hard way) are supported
mathematically by the ICC, but you could do your own system
http:/www.color.org

empirical characterization entails printing an equipment code value
target to the "calibrated" equipment and relating it mathematically as a
profile to the color of the profile connection space, usually cubic, a
three dimensional profile for 3 colorant mediums, I know there are at
least or there once was 4 colorant mediums from Fuji, I'll allow you to
derive this from my post yourself, it is not hard if you know it

even B&W colorants like silver halides have a hue that must be either
maintained or translated in the ICC profile like a three colorant
system, the eye is a three colorant system, I will allow you to derive
B&W yourself, it is not hard if you know it

with the advent of RIMM, ERIMM, and ROMM in ICC you can use digital
manipulation for hybrid systems (you can search for these on the ICC
site and they are from ProPhoto RGB according to wikipedia)

so why would you want to do it the hard way, mechanistically?

1) want to retain analog manipulation methods
2) want to have analog manipulation algorithms within digital
3) want to an analog capture of scene colorimetry
4) multi-stage analog/hybrid systems do not calibrate
(steady-state calibration is a prerequisite for profile characterization)
5) want to design new analog equipment or manipulation
6) want to design new sensitized media for a hybrid system
( a film program was around 5 million at Kodak 17 years ago)
7) want to design a better analog RIMM, ERIMM or ROMM

so how to do it the hard way?

first, you will need a lot of information, the preferred way of getting
this method is from analog media, equipment and software companies, as
opposed to the investment yourself, some analog technology really
requires single layer coatings to resolve crosstalk from spectral
sensitivity and chemical processing, chemical processing can be just the
way it is, process variability across or inside labs, or by design with
things like DIR or DIAR couplers intended to reduce or optimize chemical
crosstalk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_motion_picture_film

Kodak has licensed some hybrid or analog technology to IMAX, the analog
industry may be willing to deal at this point, additionally some analog
and hybrid information may be patented, when I was at Kodak R&D many
things were not patented due to other nations not respecting
intellectual property, PhotoCD was patented as a last ditch effort to
leverage capture film into digital systems

so what type of information will you need?

spectral sensitivity of capture mediums
(for some systems digital capture sensitivity needs resolved to sensor
and filtration)
spectrophotometry of print (subtractive) output mediums
(spectral data might have to be resolved to light source and filtration)
spectroradiometry of display (additive) output mediums
spectroradiometry of analog and hybrid printers
(for some systems such radiometry of equipment needs resolved to light
source and filtration)
chemical colorant response to light of medium (DlogE)
interimage, overall crosstalk of medium
single layer coatings of mediums to resolve chemical versus sensitivity
crosstalk

what are the use cases?
1) captures (digital, hybrid or analog)(scene or like printing density)
2) manipulations (digital, hybrid or analog)
3) outputs (digital, hybrid or analog)

spectral information is a one dimensional look-up table without crosstalk
crosstalks are at least a linear matrix
DlogE is best represented with a rational quadratic, higher math effects
the central linearity, complete linearity effects toe and shoulder,
highlight and shadow detail where dynamic range is low, this is still a
one dimensional look-up table
digital contrast is linear, gamma
hybrid input/output contrast is calibrated for gamma in most cases
multi-stage systems typically use some standard assumptions, mostly what
equipment/software/measurement the systems engineer is working with

any mathematician can take it from here to get all use cases

if you want me to do a use case, just reply, I have a lot of time on my
hands

by the way, there is a book about "making" Kodak film, but not
"designing" it, maybe the author might want to add a understandable
compilation of this to his book
http://www.makingkodakfilm.com/

[Dale]

Post by Dale
so why would you want to do it the hard way, mechanistically?
1) want to retain analog manipulation methods
2) want to have analog manipulation algorithms within digital
3) want to an analog capture of scene colorimetry
4) multi-stage analog/hybrid systems do not calibrate
(steady-state calibration is a prerequisite for profile characterization)
5) want to design new analog equipment or manipulation
6) want to design new sensitized media for a hybrid system
( a film program was around 5 million at Kodak 17 years ago)
7) want to design a better analog RIMM, ERIMM or ROMM
so how to do it the hard way?

Kodak has a lot of things they could license in the area, or at least
leverage the last days of film, probably not develop equipment, but
maybe software

1) a FORTRAN library of systems modeling
2) a VAX and a portable (POSIX?) software called PLUS to implement the
modeling in digital mathematic terms, and hybrid analog manipulation
3) scene quality (not accuracy) QsubA, leading to better scene balance
algorithms and "more attractive" images, implemented in consumer
scan/print clas35 printer
4) optimization of mathematics around ICC conversion resulting better
scenes, manipulation and storage
5) colorimetry patent from Eikonix

[Dale]

Post by Dale
so why would you want to do it the hard way, mechanistically?

also might want to maintain multi-stage approvals that might span across
labs and sites too

[Dale]

Post by Dale
so what type of information will you need?
spectral sensitivity of capture mediums
(for some systems digital capture sensitivity needs resolved to sensor
and filtration)
spectrophotometry of print (subtractive) output mediums
(spectral data might have to be resolved to light source and filtration)
spectroradiometry of display (additive) output mediums
spectroradiometry of analog and hybrid printers
(for some systems such radiometry of equipment needs resolved to light
source and filtration)
chemical colorant response to light of medium (DlogE)
interimage, overall crosstalk of medium
single layer coatings of mediums to resolve chemical versus sensitivity
crosstalk

you can translate the spectral data above to CIE chromaticity
coordinates or tristimulus values if you prefer rotations and
adjustments in an independent space, compatible with ICC and digital imaging

[Dale]

Post by Dale
by the way, there is a book about "making" Kodak film, but not
"designing" it, maybe the author might want to add a understandable
compilation of this to his book
http://www.makingkodakfilm.com/

look, I was just a young Imaging Scientist at Kodak for 9 years, I was
exposed to many things and in retrospect could have and maybe should
have been able to utilize them, yes I worked in RA4 paper testing,
Consumer C-41 process engineering, Professional C-41 process
engineering, and Professional Hybrid Systems Integration, I did not have
an actual Imaging Science job, but always had my eye on the science
others showed me or exposed in a way I could search for

there are many ex Kodak Imaging Scientists who are consultants now who
could talk to the good job this author did on film building tools, but
did not include much besides DlogE as the application and research of
such film building tools, and the systems integration involved at some
point between Film builders, Imaging Scientists and Systems Engineers to
design the film to fit a particular system paradigm or system ideal

I think I covered a generalization of hybrid systems color development
and utilization in analog systems, I could do the math for a particular
use case if someone wanted me to prove myself

but why not have the likes of Ed Giorgianni, David McDowell, Bob
Collette, etc. put these things into the author's book and the ICC?
Lots of Photo Tech people the author could talk to. But not at PhotoTech
since they tore it down, building 69 was built in 1972
http://lesliekbrown.blogspot.com/2007/10/kodak-building-implosion-update.html

include all Kodak;s QsubA picture quality considerations, like
sharpness, grain, exposure, etc., and all the design and building to
achieve them, include a discussion of "good enough color/appearance",
"more attractive color/appearance, I know QsubA is only a metric of the
final result, not a set of metrics or system of achieving the final result

ICC will always have some chemistry involved in digital, filters are
made of colorants which are chemical, even your central processing unit
of your computer and, photons are material chemical particles" and the
necessity of starting with "accurate color/appearance"

a good thing to start with might be the attempt at co-optimization of
C-41 film and RA-4 paper, and the failure thereof even with the
assistance of hybrid tools, and this is only a two-stage multiple stage
system, don't know if a system paradigm or ideal paradigm was used

[Dale]

Post by Dale
photons are material chemical particles

okay, photons do not have mass

maybe the distinction between Physical Chemistry and Particle Physics is
a consideration of mass,, maybe there does not have to be a distinction

electrons have mass, etc.

I got an A+ in both undergraduate Physical Chemistry 1 and 2
my best and most enjoyable classes, and in my opinion a very elegant
description of nature, undergraduate though and not mature enough to say
whether PChem or Physics needs a distinction without some study,
wikipedia is something I really like

[Dale]

Post by Dale
a good thing to start with might be the attempt at co-optimization of
C-41 film and RA-4 paper, and the failure thereof even with the
assistance of hybrid tools, and this is only a two-stage multiple stage
system, don't know if a system paradigm or ideal paradigm was used

if this was a consumer pursuit it would have been good enough with scene
balance algorithms, perhaps as simple as white point balance

no less editing work was achieved with this "as far as I know"

I do know they replaced the RA4 co-optimized paper with their hybrid RA4
paper when systems testing showed enough results to simplify things with
one product for analog and hybrid

[Dale]

Post by Dale
but why not have the likes of Ed Giorgianni, David McDowell, Bob
Collette, etc. put these things into the author's book and the ICC?
Lots of Photo Tech people the author could talk to. But not at PhotoTech
since they tore it down, building 69 was built in 1972
http://lesliekbrown.blogspot.com/2007/10/kodak-building-implosion-update.html

maybe they are positioning their software efforts in open systems and
standards

maybe they are not developing new media, colorants, filters, etc. or
maybe they feel standards are mature

maybe they do not have much equipment going on

so there is less need for real estate to integrate and verify such in
"open systems" and standards,

they got rid of their large Elmgrove equipment facility, they got rid of
their large Henrietta? Training facility, they may be utilizing other
places like West Kodak, Hawkeye, Lincoln, Gerber, etc. or maybe even
their Cinesite or other plants like Matchprint

they disbanded the Billerica/Lowell/Mass. (Eikonix) color management
group, some people here would make good consultants, along with
Rochester people who collaborated together on ICC hybrid standards and
the author's book

less taxes on commercial and industrial (even residential) if undeveloped

sometimes real estate is more valuable undeveloped

maybe these are the reasons they took the complex down

I used to be a part time real estate agent, only had a few residential
successful deals, but I had access to MLS and found a house in a village
type environment in a west side suburb I didn't need good credit for